What do you call a collective noun of Nicholases? Based on the non-stop conversation between Hellraiser’s Vince and Sci-Fi Bulletin’s Joy, ‘a chatter of…’ would be appropriate, or a Chatterer of.  As the hideous right-hand man of Pinhead in the first two Hellraiser movies, Nicholas Vince’s Chatterer Cenobite is only just behind Doug Bradley’s nail-endowed Hell priest in terms of being the poster boy for the series. His hideously deformed head with teeth peeled back by hooks is an iconic image that has been haunting fans for over 30 years.

Nicholas has been invited to introduce a rare screening of a 1987 35mm print by Dirt in the Gate Movies, a Bournemouth-based group of movie enthusiasts who source original celluloid prints for fans of film (in all senses). This screening has taken over a year to organise, negotiating both the rights to screen it and to source a great print. The full house is testament to the modern audiences desire to get a fix of Clive Barker’s directorial debut in all its celluloid glory, complete with occasional crackle and dropout, and with the reassuring whirring of the projector which is peeking out from a window where a sickly Jane Shelley used to secretly watch productions in her family’s in-house theatre. We’re in the Shelley Theatre, its construction overseen by Sir Percy Florence Shelley with the intention of it being the home for his mother Mary Shelley, though this would sadly not come to pass. Earlier in the day, Nicholas had visited the communal Shelley grave in Bournemouth, and this is a good place to pick up our conversation.

I’m delighted and so excited to be here, particularly because of the Shelley link; the Frankenstein monster was one of my audition pieces when I first started. In the book he has that most beautiful speech towards the end, just pointing out that he is utterly alone. ‘Even Satan had companions at his fall. I am utterly alone.’ It still gives me goosebumps.

How did your involvement with this screening of Hellraiser come about?

Basically, Ruby Payne, who with her husband Darren runs Dirt in in the Gate, invited me. But prior to that, Eileen Dietz, who was a guest at a screening of The Exorcist, got in touch with me and asked if I knew anything about these guys in Bournemouth. I didn’t know them, but I’d interviewed Dan Palmer, who is a local film maker, and he vouched for them.

At 30 years old, Hellraiser is old enough to be called a classic.

That doesn’t make me feel old at all!

You’d been modelling for Clive Barker [featuring on two of the paintings for Books of Blood – with a knife in his head and with an exposed skull] long before Hellraiser was made. Do you recall when you first became aware of the project?

Initially, he kept it very quiet. I’m pretty certain I hadn’t read The Hellbound Heart [the original Clive Barker novella on which Hellraiser is based] when he offered me the role, but then I immediately got hold of a copy. I said to myself: ‘I’m playing this character called Chatterer. Does he actually appear in the book?’

‘And how many lines does he have?’

Oh no, Clive was up front about that. He told me I wouldn’t have any lines and did I still want to be in it. I thought: ‘Hell yeah, it’s a movie!’ My first movie. He also mentioned ‘Oh, there’s going to be some make-up involved (laughs). When I got to the make-up studios of Image Animation, Bob Keen – who formed the company with Geoff Portass – said to me ‘Oh, you’re the poor bastard. You’re not going to be able to see much.’ That turned out to be an understatement.

Did you get the full plaster of Paris mould or had they created the mask already?

It was the full life-cast, which is the shoulders upwards. They also did a body cast as well. I was talking about this to Simon Bamford, who plays Butterball [another Cenobite in Hellraiser]. I reckon he would have had it done too, but he cannot recall doing it. I don’t get to wear a skirt as Chatterer, so my costume had to be as tight as possible around my legs and thighs. The body cast was from my neck to my elbows to my knees. I remember having to stand holding two broomsticks with my arms outstretched, after they’d covered me in clingfilm.

Just an average Friday night then!

Yeah! The things we do for art. When I discussed the part with Clive he described the Chatterer as being like a chimpanzee, leaping around the set, and that I’d be crouching a lot of the time. He also said the Chatterer was like the family dog – a really unpleasant Rottweiler on a chain. But when they got me into the makeup and realised I couldn’t really see, it put the kibosh on that. But also, when I crouched down in the costume the trousers stuck out to the side of the knees, and Clive didn’t like that because it just didn’t look right. And that’s when he decided I’d be standing upright all the time.

You played Chatterer in the first two movies, but he’s appeared in other later instalments in the franchise – as a torso, a dog, and a woman. Do you see this as being the same being who’s getting restructured, or is it a style of disfigurement that’s being applied to different people/creatures?

That’s very interesting – I’ve never actually thought of that. Funnily enough, at the end of last year, Clive’s company Seraphim published my Chatterer origin story – in fact, it’s my second origin story for the character, the first being called Look See and published in Fear magazine. This one, Prayers of Desire, was published in Hellraiser Anthology Volume 2, and that’s really because of the end of Hellbound where it’s revealed he’s a boy, and you wonder how did a boy end up growing up in hell. I found that a really interesting idea. Something that did strike me the other day, and I’m sure Doug won’t might me saying this, but I think it’s about time we had a female Pinhead. We’ve got a female Doctor Who, and it would be really interesting to see what a female Pinhead could be like.

The Chatterer dog appears in Bloodline and that is the subject of the best question I’ve ever been asked at a convention. It was asked by an eight-year-old boy who was a huge fan of ‘Chatterbox’ – I’ve discovered that there’s a huge group of youngsters who like Chatterer, because in America they show the movies to kids. He said: “Is the Chatterer dog Chatterer’s dog in hell?” And I always thought that’s such a lovely idea, that you have a boy and his dog.

And owners often look like their dogs.

Exactly! You mentioned the Torso Chatterer, and I reckon, having watched that sequence, it’s the same sound of the chattering teeth that you hear in the earlier movies. You can draw your own conclusions. I’d been given Chatterer busts to sign at conventions, which I was happy to do, but this wasn’t the design that I’d been wearing. I hadn’t actually realised that it had come from the latter films, Gary Tunnicliffe’s design. I guess the fact that the Chatterer exists in one form or the other in most of the subsequent movies just proves the power of that image.

Your next movie after Hellbound was in Nightbreed as Kinski, the moon-faced killer. While this gave you more visibility as an actor, I assume it involved a lot more time in the makeup chair?

Yes, and I had lines… which then got dubbed! These were the days where for additional dialogue replacement (ADR) you had to stand in a studio watching a little line on the screen, where you had to speak precisely to overdub it. I never got that right, and I got a phone call from the producer in Canada telling me it wouldn’t be my voice used. I accepted that – I hadn’t done well, and was expecting it.

And what of the production of the movie itself?

The making of the film was a very different experience. The car would arrive at 3am in Streatham, and drive me across town so that I could be in the makeup chair by 4 for Neil Gorton, who went on to do Millennium FX for Doctor Who. He and Mark Coulier, who went on to win Oscars [for The Iron Lady and The Grand Budapest Hotel]. I had to sit in the chair, stay still and not fall asleep because the Kinski makeup involved the whole head. I put a bald cap on first and then they added the seven separate pieces. But these guys were on their feet the whole time, had to make their own way to the studio, had to be on standby all the time I was filming, and then wait for me to finish and take me out of the makeup. They also had all the skill of creating, sculpting and painting all the pieces. While it was a challenge for me not being able to eat the lovely breakfast – I wasn’t allowed greasy food anywhere near the makeup – the makeup guys had it tougher.

Nightbreed was rather brutally cut by the studio into a length and version that Clive Barker was unhappy with. There’s now a longer, Director’s Cut – are you happier with what Kinski gets to do now?

Oh yes! In the original cut there’s a shot where Kinski looks towards the ceiling, and that was all you ever got to see in that shot. That was all that was left from my 16-hour shooting day! It’s now in the movie where you see Kinski speaking to Peloquin, which explains why he runs out in front of cars during the invasion of Midian. But mostly, I’m pleased for Clive, because it is a vindication of his belief of what people really wanted to see. I was lucky enough to be in Los Angeles when they did a screening of the Director’s Cut on the big screen and Clive was so lifted by the reaction.

There’s also another cut, the Cabal Cut, which is even longer. How does that compare?

What Russell Cherrington did was discover a workprint of the movie, tucked away on one of Clive’s shelves at his home in Los Angeles. He’s got so many books that they are all two-deep, and amongst them he discovered this VHS workprint, which is essentially an unprocessed print, so the quality is not great. Russell, with an editor, took the DVD of the theatrical release and the workprint and cut the two together much closer to Clive’s original vision. And it was through the Cabal Cut that over 13,000 signatures were gathered, asking that the footage be found to create a Director’s Cut. There’s many different versions, but all are made with love.

It just feels right that Nightbreed is now more of a monster movie rather than the slasher horror film that the studio clearly wanted.

Yes, and apparently David Cronenberg’s reaction to the Director’s Cut – because it follows the book and his character Decker is killed off – is that he wryly said: “I guess I’m not coming to back for the sequel.” But then no character ever truly dies in horror movies. If they did a sequel, which would be wonderful, there’s no reason why Decker couldn’t return.

It must be great to have two very different characters under your belt. Do you find a crossover in the fans, or do people tend to go for one or the other?

Myself and Barbie Wilde, who played Female Cenobite in Hellbound, were lucky enough to be invited to Sitges [Horror Film Festival] for the 30th anniversary of Hellraiser. We did a Q & A and a signing afterwards, but normally where I sign 10 Hellraiser autographs to 1 Nightbreed, this was 50:50. This was in Spain, and people had got hold of original posters that had once been sellotaped to walls! There’s also a following of Nightbreed in the gay community, and people tell me that the movie really helped them as an the outsider to know that there’s a place where they could go where they’d be accepted – they found it very inspiring. I went on to write comics for both Hellraiser and Nightbreed, and while both were really enjoyable, I preferred writing Nightbreed.

In those stories, do you have a particular affinity towards Kinski, or do you just feature him equally amongst the large ensemble?

Definitely there’s an affinity towards Kinski. The great thing about Nightbreed is that we made the movie and fairly soon afterwards they published the book The Nightbreed Chronicles. The photographer took these beautifully-posed photos of our characters – we were all taken to this studio in Pinewood – and Clive then wrote these short biographies to accompany the pictures. I remember reading Kinski‘s back story and thinking: “Thanks Clive, but it would have been really useful to have known this while I was making the movie!” But what it meant is that when I did come to write the comics I had all these back stories, a ready-made bible. Clive is very generous with his characters in inviting others to play with his work.

In addition to your Hellraiser and Nightbreed stories, you’ve also published two volumes of your own original short fiction – What Monsters Do and Other People’s Darkness. How do you approach short stories – do you write each in turn until you’ve enough material for a book, or do you set out to write a collection?

I managed to publish the first two collections in two years, but that was nearly three years ago now – I’m still working on volume three, because I’ve got distracted by acting and directing. The process is very simple. I remember that I had the title of What Monsters Do, so I knew what I was broadly going to write about. It was heavily influenced by Nightbreed, Clive saying ‘It is not our flesh, but our acts that make us monsters.’ I got a big whiteboard and did a mind map of all the monsters I could think of. Once I’d done that, the odd phrase or idea would come through. One of the stories, Family Tree, was taken from the premise – and I think is missing from An American Werewolf in London – that a werewolf can only be killed by a silver bullet fired by someone who loves them. That whole idea of euthanasia – do you love someone enough to kill them and end their suffering? I like this short form – it works like a joke, and needs a punchline.

You mention that film work has been a distraction from your writing. One of those jobs was appearing in a series of spoof trailers for imaginary films on the Fright Night documentary – You’re So Cool, Brewster! – where you play Christopher Cushing against Simon Bamford’s Peter Vincent. Something of a Hellraiser reunion.

Yes, and it wasn’t just Simon Bamford, it was also Stuart Conran, who did the makeup. It was the first time that Simon and I had worked together in nearly 30 years, and then Stuart turned Simon into Roddy McDowell playing Peter Vincent. Stuart was just 16 years old when he began working on Hellraiser – he was the makeup department runner. It was really good fun to catch up.

Another of your projects is Book of Monsters, where people were invited to choose what the monster was, and what happened next. That’s a fascinating way to make a film.

This is from Dark Rift Films and it’s going to be coming out later this year. They did a trailer for it for Glasgow Fright Fest, and it was such a wonderful project to be involved with. I interviewed the writer and director, Stewart Sparke and Paul Butler, on my YouTube show Chattering with Nicholas Vince. I discussed with them the premise that people choose the monsters, and I assumed they’d just left holes in the script to drop things in. But no, depending on what monster had been voted for, what the deaths would be, and the horror trope that must die, that would change the entire story. It’s a like movie ‘create your own adventure’ book, for those of us old enough to remember what they were! I ended up with a really nice character to play – I won’t say any more.

Any other projects for us to look out for?

Yes, there’s The Black Gloves from Hex Media, directed by Lawrie Brewster, and is available from their website. Kirby, a Hero is a film I did for the Soska Sisters’ blood drive and my first short film as a writer and director, The Night Whispered, is now available on my website. I’ve got two other short films – Your Appraisal, which has been screened at three festivals and I’m waiting for some more responses, and Necessary Evils, a demon-themed story for Hex Media’s For We are Many anthology film.

You clearly have lots on the cards. And finally, on 27 April, a new audio play of The Hellbound Heart is being released by Bafflegab, featuring Tom Meeton, Neve McIntosh and Alice Lowe. What’s your involvement in it?

I play Julia’s first victim, a businessman. And I’m a Cenobite… I get lines! I’m greatly enjoying all that I’m doing and I’m very grateful for everyone who has been supporting me.

 

Visit NicholasVince.com for the latest updates on his projects and subscribe to his ‘Chattering with Nicholas Vince’ YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/nickovince